tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post115971978511751025..comments2023-11-02T08:09:02.234-04:00Comments on Her Bad Mother: Debating FeminismHer Bad Motherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03535958887714152413noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159989189732523182006-10-04T15:13:00.000-04:002006-10-04T15:13:00.000-04:00B&P, what I mean by "army of one" is that I don't ...B&P, what I mean by "army of one" is that I don't ever EXPECT anyone else to go to bat for me. I'm glad that people have been willing to act as advocates for me, but I'd never expect someone else to put themselves on the line for my benefit. Especially when they think they know better about what I want or don't want.<BR/><BR/>Dana, thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159930886745957452006-10-03T23:01:00.000-04:002006-10-03T23:01:00.000-04:00I really liked this post very much. It made me th...I really liked this post very much. It made me think back to my mom's day. She once told me that while she feels it's a woman's right to make choices about her career and her education and religious beliefs, she feels that the Feminist movement really screwed things up for many women. My mother never wanted to be a career woman. In 1969 she graduated high school and went to college because the "feminists" were so adament on women going to college. She became a teacher and when she met my father she quit to be a stay at home mother. But then later took a job to "help support the family" because that was the thing to do in the 70's. She regrets not sticking to her beliefs. She's grateful for the choices of the women of today, but back then it was more a political action if anything.<BR/><BR/>I hope I never have to feel that way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159930521466646732006-10-03T22:55:00.000-04:002006-10-03T22:55:00.000-04:00MGM, I think the crux of this discussion is the as...MGM, I think the crux of this discussion is the aspect you and Mom-101 have been throwing back and forth here - the issue of individual vs. collective action. I think I must see the world very differently from you: I don't think I see <I>anyone</I> as an "army of one" - I see all of us leaning on one another in various ways, needing others' support and advocacy and then in turn being able to support and advocate on behalf of others.<BR/><BR/>And yet my gut instinct is to say that there is something balancing and corrective in your perspective - I think the world would be poorer if everybody thought the way you do, but it would be a whole lot crazier if everybody thought the way I do. <BR/><BR/>(Or am I just saying that individualists and collectivists actually need one another to correct their respective excesses, in which case I'm just displaying yet further evidence of my collective thinking?)Beahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15957626443087438904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159918562681892492006-10-03T19:36:00.000-04:002006-10-03T19:36:00.000-04:00Thanks Rachael. I think you're right on about the...Thanks Rachael. I think you're right on about the possibility of lapsing into inaction - figuring that the world will never change, so why fight it. I could never condone such a defeatist mentality (which is why I get frustrated with people who don't vote!).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159917944767762212006-10-03T19:25:00.000-04:002006-10-03T19:25:00.000-04:00MGM,You're probably right... I misunderstood your ...MGM,<BR/>You're probably right... I misunderstood your point. If all you're saying is that you don't believe you can tell others what to care about, than I agree. However, my concern is that sometimes (I'm not saying this is the case with you) an unwillingness to press others into caring about something they may not naturally be inclined to care about might lapse into total inaction. I get that feminists can be totally over the top, wrong, and judgmental. But I'm still incredibly grateful for those people who've stood up thus far in history to make a difference for society and for me and my daughters. And btw it was Title 9, not Title 19 (I was tired).<BR/><BR/>Thanks for this thought-provoking post.<BR/>Rachael<BR/>CrankMamaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159910543368253022006-10-03T17:22:00.000-04:002006-10-03T17:22:00.000-04:00While my views are more in line with HBM, I have t...While my views are more in line with HBM, I have to say this was well written, and I certainly respect your views mothergoosemouse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159900443471412642006-10-03T14:34:00.000-04:002006-10-03T14:34:00.000-04:00I love what you say and how you say it. You totall...I love what you say and how you say it. You totally deserve the Perfect Post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159892124407742642006-10-03T12:15:00.000-04:002006-10-03T12:15:00.000-04:00Rachael, I'm not sure that you understood me corre...Rachael, I'm not sure that you understood me correctly. I certainly do care about others, but I'm not going to tell them what THEY should care about. Or that if they don't care about the same stuff I do, that they are wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159846635008725102006-10-02T23:37:00.000-04:002006-10-02T23:37:00.000-04:00But my Mom told me that she was never allowed to p...But my Mom told me that she was never allowed to play sports. Do you know how *significant* that is? Most of us are not old enough to remember the world before bra-burning and feminism changed things forever. Title 19, if nothing else, is an incredibly important piece of legislation that has radically improved all of our lives. And if no one gave a damn for anyone but themselves, what a sad world this would be. People who consider themselves "advocates" have done a significant amount of social good in the past 30 years. Just THINK what this country would look like without the Voting Rights Act or any of the other social programs created in the 1960s? <BR/><BR/>I'll stop now. <BR/><BR/><BR/>-RachaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159831162820146372006-10-02T19:19:00.000-04:002006-10-02T19:19:00.000-04:00I understand entirely. Fair enough. It does make o...I understand entirely. Fair enough. It does make one feel weak in a way, to hear that someone is fighting for "you"--rather uncomfortable, agreed. But I wonder if there's any distinction if the issue is one you care about or don't.Mom101https://www.blogger.com/profile/15468524489744839899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159828402557162812006-10-02T18:33:00.000-04:002006-10-02T18:33:00.000-04:00Liz, this is probably where we start to diverge in...Liz, this is probably where we start to diverge in terms of our views on social responsibility. It's not so much that I don't feel like I should act as an advocate for others, but that I don't want anyone presuming to act as an advocate for me. I'll fight my own battles (and enlist my own troops, to carry on the military metaphor) - and maybe I'll join up with someone else's battle, but I don't want someone telling me "Hey, I'm fighting for YOU, so you'd better agree with me." Likewise, I would never presume to do the same to someone else.<BR/><BR/>Does that clear it up, or have I muddied the waters further?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159825705709198032006-10-02T17:48:00.000-04:002006-10-02T17:48:00.000-04:00Ooooooh Julie...thought provoking as I would have ...Ooooooh Julie...thought provoking as I would have expected! I love your example about the spelling bee and you make some good points. But I have to disagree (of course) with the notion that it's not your place to act on behalf of other people. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps I'm confusing your comment - that you personally don't feel the calling. If so, so be it. But if your intention is to say that you don't feel that <I>one</I> should act on behalf of others, I think society and progress sort of falls apart there.<BR/><BR/>Most women--nay, most people--need advocates. They are not as able of body and mind as the rest. 38% of this country thinks that Sadam Hussein struck us on 9/11. So how many of those people know how to fight for equal pay? For justices they deserve? For benefits that workers are entitled to, not just the ones who know they are. <BR/><BR/>You may not want that person to be you who fights for this, but I'm glad there are people who do this very thing.Mom101https://www.blogger.com/profile/15468524489744839899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159823370618080532006-10-02T17:09:00.000-04:002006-10-02T17:09:00.000-04:00shit, i had a nice long comment and then blogger w...shit, i had a nice long comment and then blogger went down as I was submitting.<BR/><BR/>in a nutshell (if I can ever do that). I think you articulate the ambivalence surrounding the term really well--the "I'm not a feminist but..." kind of statement. As someone who reads your blog, I would call you a feminist blogger without hesitation, but I think that's because my concept of "feminism" is different to yours. Yes, it's a label for overt political advocacy for women, but for me feminism refers to more than just that. If you believe that gender inequity exists and that it is unjust, then you are a feminist in my book.<BR/><BR/>however, and this is where we might part ways, I also believe that gender inequity is the result of social and collective forces, and not individual action. So combatting the problem requires a collective response. When I vent on my blog about how people treat me as a pregnant women, on one level this is a personal rant, even a bit of confessional gossip, on another level it is a form of feminist advocacy. My experience is part of a larger social context, and when people say "I hear you" we are coming together to collectively voice opposition. OK, so we're not directly lobbying for policy change, but it's advocacy nonetheless. I also aspire to be part of a movement that does go a step further and push for leglislative/systemic change (which is the part you are uncomfortable with). But this movement is just one aspect/strand of feminism, not the face of it.<BR/><BR/>nice post, MG--we need more debate like this.gingajoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01356643079413822527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159822836050346922006-10-02T17:00:00.000-04:002006-10-02T17:00:00.000-04:00In Newsweek's "Women and Leadership" issue your po...In Newsweek's "Women and Leadership" issue your point Julie was echoed by nearly all of the powerful women chosen for the issue. Most of the women achieved success by doing their personal best and not as part of a female agenda. <BR/><BR/>Of course, had it not been for the women who lead the feminist movement and created massive transformation we would not have women in positions of power and influence. Because of the success of women before us we continue to achieve not with the feminine qualifier, but just as a person and as a result we effect change for the betterment of us all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159822189581924802006-10-02T16:49:00.000-04:002006-10-02T16:49:00.000-04:00Mamalooper, thanks for the feedback. Changing min...Mamalooper, thanks for the feedback. Changing mindsets takes time. Generalizations like the example you gave piss me off too. They're unfair and untrue, and I've called bullshit on them (politely, of course) at various times in my own professional life. And I think that's what it takes - performing well, setting precedents, and calling bullshit on the dinosaurs. I think the same is true for other instances of discrimination as well.<BR/><BR/>I understand what you mean about acting as an involuntary representative, and I think you're right that it comes with the territory. My actions - as I'm fighting my own fight - may have a resulting impact on others. But the impetus for those actions - the motivation behind them - was my own. If it helps others too, that's great.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159821991920735202006-10-02T16:46:00.000-04:002006-10-02T16:46:00.000-04:00I've opted to comment on this one before getting t...I've opted to comment on this one before getting to HBM's (so I don't get lazy and say "what she said";-) as I think I might)<BR/><BR/>I think you articulate very well the fundamental reservation people have with the term "femininism" and the general tendency "I'm not a femininist, but..."<BR/>I've been a reader of your blog for a while now, and I would without reservation refer to you as a feminist bloggeord=teamcanadaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159810779616299062006-10-02T13:39:00.000-04:002006-10-02T13:39:00.000-04:00Loved both posts - lots to think about.I do identi...Loved both posts - lots to think about.<BR/><BR/>I do identify myself as a feminist although I am much much less angry than I was when I was younger! And like HBM, I think even more about it now that I have Monkeygirl. I want her to grow up not even having to worry about many of the issues that I lived with.<BR/><BR/>One question that I am pondering that arose out of your post. Can we (royal "we") really be just acting solely on our own behalf when we are part of a minority group and the majority group sees us as representative of that group? Ideally, we should just be able to operate on our own behalf but if/when we are perceived by the "other" in power/influence as representative, don't we end up representing that group whether we like it or not?<BR/><BR/>Here's an example from corporateland. Guy in senior position screws up a project. Response: We'll never give Joe something that big to handle again. Woman in senior position screws up a project: See, women just can't handle that level of responsibility. <BR/><BR/>The ideal for some may be to operate on their own but the reality for now may be that they reflect a particular group.Sandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03185856683761789420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159808880959363592006-10-02T13:08:00.000-04:002006-10-02T13:08:00.000-04:00Absolutely. My point was that I do not object to ...Absolutely. My point was that I do not object to the feminist movement based on those tired old arguments, but on a more cerebral, more personal level. I think name-calling and use of derogatory terms such as "feminazi" say more about the name-caller than about the target.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159808266872043542006-10-02T12:57:00.000-04:002006-10-02T12:57:00.000-04:00I consider myself a feminicey.Great essays, both o...I consider myself a feminicey.<BR/><BR/>Great essays, both of you. Very thought-provoking!Ruth Dynamitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06161626814106717754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159807346236251602006-10-02T12:42:00.000-04:002006-10-02T12:42:00.000-04:00I think that I can speak for both Julie and I in s...I think that I can speak for both Julie and I in saying that we also abhor the term 'feminazi'... part of my point was that at a younger and more impressionable age I was frustrated and angry enough to accept the term - if feminazi meant pissing off people like Buddy, then bring it on. But it was precisely that angry, extreme edge of feminism that turned me off - the judgmental 'you're with us or against us' edge that excluded some women as not 'pure' enough in their feminism (and that sometimes veered toward man-hating). The term is vile because it connotes hate - but it was that hateful edge of feminism (and it's always there, at the dark corners of any ism) that touched a nerve for me. <BR/><BR/>My struggle with feminism has been to find the power in feminism that doesn't rely upon extreme anger - it was for that reason that I told the story about being called a feminazi, and about wanting to find away to reject the very idea of the feminazi.Her Bad Motherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03535958887714152413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159798802436286942006-10-02T10:20:00.000-04:002006-10-02T10:20:00.000-04:00I enjoyed both of your essays. I don't think I've ...I enjoyed both of your essays. <BR/><BR/>I don't think I've ever considered myself a 'feminist' in the original sense of the word. I've just always very strongly felt and believed that women should be able to do anything they want to in life, provided they develop the skills to do so, i.e., they should be treated just like men. This also includes the freedom to make choices about your life. When men make 'choices', they aren't asked to defend them; they aren't asked to consider how they're choices are going to effect other men. Whereas women frequently seem to divide themselves into camps that criticize other women that make different choices. (The most obvious divide being working moms and stay at home moms. You rarely hear the term working dad.... Sigh.)<BR/><BR/>BTW, I also detest the term feminazi. I think it's most often used by people who want to marginalize women who dare to ask for equal opportunities in society. I always wonder what happens when these people have daughters of their own....do they really want their own kids to be treated like second class citizens when it comes to opportunity? (Sadly, I know the answer to this one from personal experience; my bio dad always made fun of women lawyers. So I, of course, was compelled to thumb my nose at him and go to law school. ;-)ewe are herehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13339650361453626546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159798620636952192006-10-02T10:17:00.000-04:002006-10-02T10:17:00.000-04:00I'm with you that feminism is worthwhile cause as ...I'm with you that feminism is worthwhile cause as an ideal, but I also consider myself a feminist if only for the fact I still believe that women need to promote themselves and eachother and there is not a better medium for that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159798036719509222006-10-02T10:07:00.000-04:002006-10-02T10:07:00.000-04:00I do call myself a feminist. Though it took serio...I do call myself a feminist. Though it took serious consciousness raising to get me there. I am loathe to admit that in my young 20's a gorgeous, smart, amazing woman asked me to join her "salon" (it was back in the Utne Salon days) a.k.a. Feminist discussion group. I ACTUALLY said, "No. I can't be a feminist. I'm married." What a complete DORK!!! I ended up divorcing that first "practice" husband, getting a clue and amazingly, that woman is actually a friend today who forgives me for my silliness - though it mortifies me still.OhTheJoyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031731198115388411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159796761210154072006-10-02T09:46:00.000-04:002006-10-02T09:46:00.000-04:00Very thought provoking posts. I must admit that I ...Very thought provoking posts. I must admit that I get a little uncomfortable with the whole feminism conversation. The older I get the less feministic I become. I think that's because my definition of feminism has changed as I get older. With each year I'm becoming more comfortable with myself and embracing different aspects of being a woman. I'm strong and sensitive, sexy but not slutty, kind but assertive, and educated but willing to be taught. HBM, you summed it up best with: "I want her to know that there is immeasurable value in being a woman, no matter what life she chooses. And that she should support other women in the lives that they choose."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1159795200726650002006-10-02T09:20:00.000-04:002006-10-02T09:20:00.000-04:00I could not agree with you more. Well said. I cons...I could not agree with you more. Well said. I consider myself a person first, with all the rights and responsibilities that come with that title.Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11342425698876916791noreply@blogger.com