tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post116122737100356252..comments2023-11-02T08:09:02.234-04:00Comments on Her Bad Mother: Big FishHer Bad Motherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03535958887714152413noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161702305703667622006-10-24T11:05:00.000-04:002006-10-24T11:05:00.000-04:00Jaelithe - I didn't for one minute think that you ...Jaelithe - I didn't for one minute think that you were against storytelling! Not for a minute. This post wasn't *negatively* inspired, it was positively inspired - your musings about what constitutes a lie and when or whether it matters just got me thinking. It provoked me to consider whether the stories my mother told me were good lies, useful lies or just lies. I'm still somewhat ambivalent on certain questions about the relationship between lying and storytelling.<BR/><BR/>But, gah - this post wasn't a rejoinder to or critique of yours, not by a long shot. It just picked up the question that you seemed to be grappling with (and grappling with well, I thought.) It was inspired by the questions you raised in your post. I'm really sorry if you thought that I took your post as some sort of anti-storytelling treatise - I absolutely did not take it that way! I thought it was great!Her Bad Motherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03535958887714152413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161700043784923852006-10-24T10:27:00.000-04:002006-10-24T10:27:00.000-04:00You know, I have to say that I still think it is r...You know, I have to say that I still think it is really weird that my post inspired this post because I AM NOT AGAINST STORYTELLING. AT. ALL. I AM A WRITER. And the post wasn't meant to be serious at all. It was meant to be funny. Me, due to a momentary flash of weird mommy guilt, with a flashlight and a ball. Explaining planetary motions to a two-year-old. Funny. <BR/><BR/>But there are so many comments here that I feel like no one will read my earlier comment where I tried to make my position on the subject more clear . . . *sigh* so goes life on the internets . . . maybe I will write a follow-up post on my blog sometime when I am not buying a house.Jaelithehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12081888212421953409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161530085945901062006-10-22T11:14:00.000-04:002006-10-22T11:14:00.000-04:00you know, you've got gnomes, and plato's republic ...you know, you've got gnomes, and plato's republic all in one post here. i am just in pure awe...;-)<BR/>(love it).<BR/><BR/>you know i wholeheartedly agree with you--in every respect here. and you know what, we should not underestimate the ability of our children to accept several versions of a truth. my son adores tales of the moon being made of cheese, and the sun going to bed. another of his favorite books right now is "what makes night and day"--much more empirically sound, and (much to mummy's boredom) he insists on having it read to him all the time. one does not undermine the other in his mind.<BR/><BR/>my pregnancy is another example of how we try and creatively handle the truth. developmentally, is not ready to take on the full details of sex right now, but he knows "daddy planted a seed and mummy is making it grow." and that is has something to do with penises and vaginas.<BR/><BR/>so a) one form of telling does not mean the other is ruled out. our children are more adept at switching modes than we realize, and b) as if we have a complete handle on the "truthful" and scientific ways of telling things anyway.gingajoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01356643079413822527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161501959855378792006-10-22T03:25:00.000-04:002006-10-22T03:25:00.000-04:00I love this post. Maybe my favorite post ever. I t...I love this post. Maybe my favorite post ever. I totally agree. Imagination is what happens when logic is superfluous. I believe wholeheartedly in story-telling for the sake of nurturing our childrens creativity and imaginations.<BR/><BR/>As a writer and storyteller I think that storytelling is one of the only geniune ancient arts we have left. There is a great quote by Henry Miller that opens up my manuscript and it says...<BR/><BR/>“Lies can only be embedded in truth. They have no separate existence… A good lie reveals more than truth can ever reveal. To the one, that is, that seeks truth.”<BR/><BR/>By looking for the truth about fairies, one is looking for something bigger than truth. One is looking for the dream and the dream, in my opinion is the greatest gift of all.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for this and I hope you pass it on to wonderbaby. You are better for it and so will she be.<BR/><BR/>The imagination is so powerful. I would be lost without mine.GIRL'S GONE CHILDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07130764109593048451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161499640793923012006-10-22T02:47:00.001-04:002006-10-22T02:47:00.001-04:00That is the cutest thing I've heard in a long time...That is the cutest thing I've heard in a long time!!! (if you unscrew your belly button, your bum will fall off) Your mom rocks!Haute Mamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14352803055907107943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161499620409035762006-10-22T02:47:00.000-04:002006-10-22T02:47:00.000-04:00she sounds very entertaining!she sounds very entertaining!mod*momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17072518787342325987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161468462793719762006-10-21T18:07:00.000-04:002006-10-21T18:07:00.000-04:00oh boy, i thought i commented yesterday, but clear...oh boy, i thought i commented yesterday, but clearly blogger ate my well-thought out, lucid opine. <BR/>can't redo it at this moment, so i'll just say:<BR/>nice job with the michael sowa's.karengreenershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02488069680575426742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161460458557843802006-10-21T15:54:00.000-04:002006-10-21T15:54:00.000-04:00All I know is that Girlkiddo spent hours creating ...All I know is that Girlkiddo spent hours creating fairy houses on a camping trip this summer--hours that I was able to spend in blessed silence, reading to my heart's content. <BR/><BR/>What could possibly be wrong about that?Pieceshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05619566335420317942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161455517024709942006-10-21T14:31:00.000-04:002006-10-21T14:31:00.000-04:00I think there is a fine line between a lie, and a ...I think there is a fine line between a lie, and a tale… I remember as kids in kindergarten we were told that a wicked witch was caught on the roof of our building, and is now been boiled outside, and we should not go there. None of us did. We were scared to pieces. In reality they were fixing the roof and boiling some resin. But I’m sure that if we were told that, somebody would definitely go to explore what “resin” is, and how it boils…vasilisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07751000715441075002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161399709115962072006-10-20T23:01:00.000-04:002006-10-20T23:01:00.000-04:00That belly-button "lie" is too much. Lol! She's a ...That belly-button "lie" is too much. Lol! She's a funny lady!!Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07516203764767040649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161399604127140772006-10-20T23:00:00.000-04:002006-10-20T23:00:00.000-04:00I think literary critics often turn to this part o...I think literary critics often turn to this part of the Republic when speaking of Plato's apparent ambivalence toward poetry and the poet. How fitting that you evoke it in this discussion. Lovely! And, lovely choice of art in this post.<BR/><BR/>I think your mother did you a great service. How special and magical -- the way a child's life should be (and an adult's!). I think your mother gave you a gift by sharing her imagination with you. This isn't at all deception. There was such noble truth in her "lies" -- she taught you, through them, to respect the environment and others. How inspiring. :)Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07516203764767040649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161388636240753572006-10-20T19:57:00.000-04:002006-10-20T19:57:00.000-04:00Julie, I don't think that anyone is suggesting tha...Julie, I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the 'Truth' - whaever that means - is dry and dull. I'm not, anyway. On the contrary - is there anything so remarkable as physics? Astronomy? (Though I myself got turned on to astronomy as a science after hearing the ancient stories about Orion and Cassiopaeia - I asked for a telescope for my 7th birthday.) I think that where stories are most useful are in those areas where we either don't have the answer, or the full, scientific answer is perhaps a bit complicated. In either case, I think that stories are greatest, as I said, when they *point* at the truth, when they tell the truth in accessible or interesting terms. And beyond this, I think that there's plenty of room for gilding the truth, making it poetic, as has been done over the centuries. My mother certainly told me that flowers (or toadstools) would die if I picked them, and she told me (more or less) why. But she gilded that explanation with a fantastical story about all the other cretaures who depended on it and who would be sad. Unnecessary, for sure. But magical.<BR/><BR/>I want to be clear, too, that I'm not arguing that having Lewis Carroll as a parent is a prerequisite for imagination or creativity. I don't think that children *need* fanciful stories about secret gardens or witches in wardrobes or what have you. I just think that they're nice.Her Bad Motherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03535958887714152413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161386815128972272006-10-20T19:26:00.000-04:002006-10-20T19:26:00.000-04:00You guys are killing me.Why is it assumed that The...You guys are killing me.<BR/><BR/>Why is it assumed that The Truth carries no joy or wonder and is "tight" (versus lightened up)?<BR/><BR/>Jaelithe IMO makes an excellent point, "glossing over or making up stories about questions that my son might actually be able to comprehend the answer to, not out of a desire to imbue him with a sense of magic, but just because making up a story is easier than actually THINKING about how to explain something to him in a way he'll understand."<BR/><BR/>The Truth can be quite wonderful and amazing. It can also be quite hard to explain in an age-appropriate way.<BR/><BR/>But I think in general we owe our kids an honest explanation to an honest question.<BR/><BR/>This requires me to admit sometimes that I don't know, and we'll have to go see.<BR/><BR/>I see many "creative lying" parents and IMO it is sometimes indicative of too lazy to handle it.<BR/><BR/>One friend is the Creative Master Liar. She tells her kids there are snakes on the floor when lights go out to keep her kids in bed.<BR/><BR/>Guess what? Works the first time.<BR/><BR/>Much easier than my Multiple Step plan of teaching the kids they must choose to lay down and sleep.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying it is inherently lazy parenting.<BR/><BR/>And I understand the distinction.<BR/><BR/>But seriously, when I tell my kid, "Don't pick all the flowers," and she asks, "Why?"<BR/><BR/>I don't think I suck the joy or magic of childhood from her when I say, "Because they'll die and turn brown."<BR/><BR/>And the major adjective to describe my child? Creative. Followed closely by Imaginative.<BR/><BR/>Wonder how that happens, this creatively imaginative romantic child...hemmed in by all this truth I tell.Julie Pipperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03169574697104642479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161383316101388192006-10-20T18:28:00.000-04:002006-10-20T18:28:00.000-04:00That's a great post! I think I am way way way to...That's a great post! I think I am way way way too careful about telling my kids "the truth." Part of it is my husband is not big on fantasies, fairy tales, religious explanations and the like... but you've just inspired me to lighten up a little bit in that regard.the mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11536278508991059301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161373577988777032006-10-20T15:46:00.000-04:002006-10-20T15:46:00.000-04:00I think your mom is fun. I think I view things in...I think your mom is fun. I think I view things in a similar manner. Joy and wonder should be encouraged. Going into facts and full disclosure with young children can sometimes dampen the wonder. Revealing information as needed can be a way to preserve childhood wonder while still being truthful...Grim Reality Girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080844233014641611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161373445466492132006-10-20T15:44:00.000-04:002006-10-20T15:44:00.000-04:00Being too lazy to read through 42 other comments, ...Being too lazy to read through 42 other comments, I recognize this may have been said before I got here - <BR/>Without commenting on whether your mother's type of lies are necessary in order to do so, I do think it is good for a child to see the world as a "place of wonder". The nurturing of this idea in a child is important for the child's own good, and also because so much of what is enjoyable about parenting is getting to see things in a new way through your child's experience of the world. Encouraging this sense of possibility and joy helps us as parents see the world this way too.nonlineargirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05414675024101618604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161370091324800082006-10-20T14:48:00.000-04:002006-10-20T14:48:00.000-04:00I think fantasy and magical story-telling is my fa...I think fantasy and magical story-telling is my favorite part of raising children... and their natural wonder fills me with joy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161369487369737692006-10-20T14:38:00.000-04:002006-10-20T14:38:00.000-04:00I see absolutely no harm in the sorts of stories y...I see absolutely no harm in the sorts of stories your mom told you as a child. I would have loved to have grown up in your house. Over lunch, Jaelithe and I discussed if the post on The Mom Trap had any validity, that the white lies weren't so white. After having thought this over and after reading her post, a previous post she wrote about a dragon egg story her mother told her, and now your post, I think there is a time for the white lies, and a time to tell the stark truth. But I like the idea that the white lies are a form of directing someone toward the truth, since behind the white lie is a desire for the betterment of the person (in this case child) lied to, a way for them to begin to comprehend the fullness of a situation in their own way. That rings true to me. And after reading such an enchanting post, I have no desire to censor the magic from my son's childhood in fear of losing my own credibility with him. <BR/><BR/>Andrea (http://littlebalddoctors.wordpress.com)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161367433491455852006-10-20T14:03:00.000-04:002006-10-20T14:03:00.000-04:00For a fuller perspective on my full perspective on...For a fuller perspective on my full perspective on this subject, those of you who are not regular readers of my blog might want to read <A HREF="http://jaelithej.blogspot.com/2006/06/story-about-summer-1986.html" REL="nofollow">this post</A> (still sorry I never finished the meme for you, Debbie).<BR/><BR/>As you can see, I am not actually opposed to making up fun fantasy tales for children. I just often wonder where one ought to draw the line. I often feel I am getting lazy as a parent, and glossing over or making up stories about questions that my son might actually be able to comprehend the answer to, not out of a desire to imbue him with a sense of magic, but just because making up a story is easier than actually THINKING about how to explain something to him in a way he'll understand. <BR/><BR/>I do feel guilty when I lie about food. I feel guiltly, but I do it anyway. I get the feeling 99% of mothers would do the same were they in my position (meaning, the position of having watched your plump, healthy child come home after a "minor" surgery and proceed to starve himself over the course of a year to a nigh-skeletal spectre of his former self, despite constantly being offered an abundance of healthy, tasty food. <BR/><BR/>If I knew for certain it would cure my son's food aversion and bring him back to a healthy weight, I might even consider voting Republican in the mid-terms in two weeks. <BR/><BR/>Hey, I said <I>consider</I>, okay? I didn't say I'd do it :P).Jaelithehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12081888212421953409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161362682557550902006-10-20T12:44:00.000-04:002006-10-20T12:44:00.000-04:00Oh and I will add that my Romanitics prof in unive...Oh and I will add that my Romanitics prof in university always said "a man's reach must exceed his grasp or what's a metaphor." -- a nice retake on the Browning original.Madhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13416585771017767796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161362261789697022006-10-20T12:37:00.000-04:002006-10-20T12:37:00.000-04:00Beautful, amazing post and what a stupend-tabulous...Beautful, amazing post and what a stupend-tabulous mother you had!<BR/><BR/>Was it not Oscar Wilde in "The Decay of Lying" who said that the true function of the artist is to lie and that the true purpose of conversation is to entertain not to instruct? That way lies truth. <BR/><BR/>I don't imagine that Gabriel Garcia Marquez's mother told him just the facts. I don't imagine that anyone's appreciation of art or literature comes from being shown a prosaic view of the world around them. I firmly believe that magic must, must, must reside in every object we encounter in the day. The truth will come to those who seek it but it will be a richer truth if it is framed by artful lies. <BR/><BR/>I know that I, myself, would rather see a "still unravished bride of quietness, a foster child of silence a slow time" than an old jug any day. <BR/><BR/>Here's to art, here's to poetry, here's to a revival of capital "R" Romaniticism.<BR/><BR/>Having said all that, I will tell my daughter the real name of her vulva and I will explain where babies come from--perhaps while weaving tall tales into the process.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for this great post.Madhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13416585771017767796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161353716130240442006-10-20T10:15:00.000-04:002006-10-20T10:15:00.000-04:00I should add, in my own defense, that although we ...I should add, in my own defense, that although we are pretty honest and forthright, it is about things. Ideas are wide-open. And like I said, we imagine a lot. I think within science there is a TREMENDOUS sense of wonder, and many things a child has to simply believe in. <BR/><BR/>And I don't hold forth purely and completely on every subject. Many things I leave up to her, to think critically through and decide for herself, and many things I simply don't bring up until in some way I know she's ready and it is time.<BR/><BR/>I suppose one day she'll tell me she never believed in Santa Claus but thoguht it was good fun to pretend.<BR/><BR/>As I did.Julie Pipperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03169574697104642479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161353517912803622006-10-20T10:11:00.000-04:002006-10-20T10:11:00.000-04:00Flora isn't for our amusement? Oh rats! Wherever s...Flora isn't for our amusement? Oh rats! Wherever shall I dispose of all of the dissected mushrooms from yesterday?<BR/><BR/>Mall santas aren't the real santas. I said this from the get-go. I told DD one person can't do all teh work alone. She'd never have bought that anyway, my little Skeptic (you know, default scientific position). So she understands that the mall Santas are there representing Santa. They work for the Santa Cause, like Daddy has people who work for him.<BR/><BR/>In other words, we just relate it to the world she knows. And she's very concrete, in a Romantic sort of way. So it's tailored to her.<BR/><BR/>Lying? I better not. Not to my kids. They'll run it through their own personal CSI lab and find me out and confront me under a bright light.<BR/><BR/>We *imagine* things. We like to do that. Imagine if the tiniest fairy ever lived under the mushroom and had an even tinier cat.<BR/><BR/>We tell *stories.* And when you walk through the invisible magic door here you find a land of dragons.<BR/><BR/>And there is *space.* This is turkey, but try a bite and see what you think.<BR/><BR/>So far mostly so good. Kinda. Time will tell.<BR/><BR/>I do this, BTW, because I was lied and prevaricated to a lot as a child and knew it, and despised it.<BR/><BR/>I think it depends on the kid.<BR/><BR/>I took it as a trick and so does DD. And as perfectionistic thinkers, it cuts us to the core.Julie Pipperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03169574697104642479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161352732783780652006-10-20T09:58:00.000-04:002006-10-20T09:58:00.000-04:00Shit, If I unscrew my bellybutton and my bum drops...Shit, If I unscrew my bellybutton and my bum drops off you are going to hear the boom all the way over at your place. Sorry got side tracked there...<BR/>I think it is wonderful for children to live in a world of fantasy. In our house we encourage a belief in the magical, and more importantly, the possible....<BR/>That being said, and as you well know from my downer posts of late, there are some hard and sorry truths they need to know to negotiate our crazy world.<BR/><BR/>Your mum sounds fun.<BR/><BR/>Ummmm, and does anyone have a good answer about all of those freakin' mall Santas?crazymummahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04663148723513574331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1161346511756522822006-10-20T08:15:00.000-04:002006-10-20T08:15:00.000-04:00Yes, I think a world filled with wonder and possib...Yes, I think a world filled with wonder and possibility in which their imaginations roam freely is the best gift we can give a young child. <BR/>Absolutely. Harsh reality is better suited for adults and unfortunately it sets in soon enough. <BR/>And your mother sounds like the kind of mom I hope to be someday. What a lovely childhood you must have had.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com