tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post115332407990465191..comments2023-11-02T08:09:02.234-04:00Comments on Her Bad Mother: In the forests of the nightHer Bad Motherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03535958887714152413noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153824482618658802006-07-25T06:48:00.000-04:002006-07-25T06:48:00.000-04:00These comments are so revealing! Who knew that so ...These comments are so revealing! Who knew that so many people were disillusioned with organized religion?<BR/><BR/>I'm right in there with you. As much as I want to give my kids "constructs to compare and contrast," as Nancy says above, I can't find any place to start. No religion seems to fit. <BR/><BR/>I was raised with no formal religious anything by a non-practicing Jew and a once-practicing Christian. My two siblings and I were given the freedom to choose. None of us has chosen anything to date.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your thought-provoking, intelligent post, as always.Ruth Dynamitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06161626814106717754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153793359445224032006-07-24T22:09:00.000-04:002006-07-24T22:09:00.000-04:00I am here; sorry it took so long -- I have been wa...I am here; sorry it took so long -- I have been wanting to sit down with your post when I've had absolute quiet to concentrate. Shows you how my week's been. <BR/><BR/>Normally I read all the comments before making my own but I had to jump ahead first and say: yes. And yes. And yes again. <BR/><BR/>I don't understand why it's so easy to let one negative influence in the religious sphere turn us off to the whole process and faith -- but what happened to you (conceptually) is what happened to me. In my own religious education, things were attributed to God that were not godlike. I could not reconcile that with other things I had been taught. Also, I had such trouble with the "all or nothing" nature of the particular Catholicism I was raised with: so condemning rather than forgiving. (and yes, I went through the "how can God let the children starve in Africa thing too"...)<BR/><BR/>I love this: "I prayed with full acknowledgement of my own confusion, my own ambivalence" -- it's what I've struggled with due to my own black/white religious upbringing. To pray without being certain that I believe has always seemed sacrificial, but I do find comfort in prayer when I'm hoping there's someone listening. I need to learn to find comfort in the ambivalence myself.<BR/><BR/>And your reasons for wanting to expose your children to religion early make sense. I have heard so many agnostics/nonbelievers who said they were raised to find their own way with religion -- not really exposed to any one thing, but with openness to all. I don't think that's necessarily bad, but without having exposure to something more specific (such as a particular religion) children may lack the constructs to compare and contrast. It's like with writing: easier to poke holes in a straw man or a concept document, than a group of ideas that have no weight and shape. <BR/><BR/>Final point, and then I'll stop with my novel... I struggle with the fact too that my faith has become mostly private, that it's of-the-moment rather than rote and ritual as it was in my youth. I find the latter more compelling than I used to, but I believe my real learning and celebration of faith is in private. I want to understand too how I can convey that to my kids.<BR/><BR/>Now I will go read the other comments. Thank you for this wonderful post, and for linking to mine. I am glad if I had any role in helping you put such wonderfully thought-provoking words together.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153714400460608092006-07-24T00:13:00.000-04:002006-07-24T00:13:00.000-04:00OK, I did not read the other comments as I wish to...OK, I did not read the other comments as I wish to speak pure. Good Gawd woman can you write. That being said, both of my parents grew up during WW2, my Mother esp having hideous experiences. Both Left God, on principle. I grew up in a state of almost anti faith. YET, 2 years ago, my older girl, discovered the 'idea' of god, the 'idea' of a greater being. We have let her explore that road at will, thru picture bibles (explaining our own confusion all the while), thru certain friends converting to Judaism, thru her own exploration of magic and Wiccan thought. <BR/>As we have no truly defined faith, we have told her to find faith inside, and to take from many faiths and streams of thought to create her own. <BR/>They get pretty deep at about age 7....be prepared...Annecrazymummahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04663148723513574331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153707013671259632006-07-23T22:10:00.000-04:002006-07-23T22:10:00.000-04:00I don't have time to read all of the comments, but...I don't have time to read all of the comments, but I have skimmed.<BR/><BR/>I agree with you totally. I was raised by a Baptist and an atheist. My mother (the Baptist) never forced anything on us. We of course attended church with her when we were very young, but when we got old enough to decide not to go (ten or eleven years old, depending on the person) she did not make us. <BR/><BR/>My father, the "atheist", after years of debates with my mother, and seeing how the church and all really made her happy, changed his mind when he was in his late 40's. He thought and thought and realised that there was no way there could not be a God. It makes no sense at all. He now leads bible studies at their church and is a Christian.<BR/><BR/>As I said, we were never forced to attend. My siblings and I have gone in various directions. One of my brothers and I have a very strong faith and attend church regularly. Another says he thinks there is a God, but that is about it. The other says he KNOWS there is a God, but doesn't like oragnised religion.<BR/><BR/>My husband and I take our children to church. They enjoy memorizing bible verses, reading bible stories and praying. They are very kind, loving people. Our oldest is almost 14 and isn't thrilled with church lately. It isn't that he is questioning his faith yet (we talk openly about anything and everything) but that he just gets bored.<BR/><BR/><BR/>We don't push it. We tell them to question things and not just accept what someone tells them. We have just come out and said, "This is what we believe. It does not mean you need to believe the same thing. Read about things. Explore. Figure out for yourself what you believe."<BR/><BR/><BR/>I have a friend who was forced to go to church. So many people have bad experiences, it is a real shame. Not what God wants at all. She did not want her kids to feel like she did, so she has never taken them to church at all. She wants them to figure things out for themselves, but I really think i tis easier if they are exposed to it early, like you say. Doesn't mean they will always come back to it, but it doesn't hurt at all.<BR/><BR/>It really has to do with religious experience. So many churches and "christians" are so two-faced and hypocritical and it scares people or turns them off. Those churches and people get so arrogant and think they are better than others who don't share their faith and they forget that God loves all his children equally. He gave us free will. We can choose, He just hopes we chose correctly. He didn't send his son to earth for no reason, after all!Lowahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11014088685507756473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153696852252004132006-07-23T19:20:00.000-04:002006-07-23T19:20:00.000-04:00Dearest HBM,I am a proud atheist. I was raised by ...Dearest HBM,<BR/>I am a proud atheist. I was raised by a staunchly atheist father and a flaky, non-committal, semi-agnostic, semi-Zen Buddhist mother. I am raising my children atheist. I have absolutely no ambivalence about this whatsoever. I choose to raise my children under my own value-set, which includes not only the lack of belief in any deity, but also the belief in, and insistence upon, the application of reason and critical thinking on all matters. I have no doubt that my children will thoroughly think-though their own atheist upbringing, and then (most likely) determine that it was good and correct, as I have done throughout my life. I have never felt that religious choice was ripped from me. Religious and philosophic conversation were ever-present in my home life, and the conversation was *always* that—a *conversation*. My parents always presented me with alternate views. You will indubitably do the same. So why all the fuss? Why are you trippin', mama?<BR/>As you have stated, faith is experiential. As a secularist, you *cannot* provide this to your children. You cannot have things both ways. You are a thinking person and the matriarch of a thinking family. You are not living under J.C.'s magical spell. So be it!<BR/>My lack of ambivalence about my decision to raise my children atheist stems not from arrogance, but from many years of thought on the subject. Even as a (very!) small child, I questioned my parents' choices; they were clearly 'out of the fray.' I understood that in some respects, my parents' irreligiousity put me at odds with other children, adults, and society as a whole. I understood and intuitively sensed the danger in this. But in the end, I came to believe that my parents' raised me in this way because they were strong, intelligent, and proud people. They had the courage to tell me the truth. Thank God for that! (har-har) <BR/> After all, He's not there! He's not there, mama! Or do you you doubt this? Maybe you need to figure out where you *truly* stand on this issue. Is He there or isn't He? If He's not there, don't lie to your kids about it. That would be immoral. <BR/>As far as I'm concerned, the Christians and religious fanatics of all stripes are hijacking our world. The more “out” atheists there are running around, the better. We'll have a more loving and moral world as religion begins to fade.<BR/>P.S. I think that you're GREAT, and I'm totally intimidated by you, and by your vast legions of commentors. So even writing this is a "thing" for me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153616947121091232006-07-22T21:09:00.000-04:002006-07-22T21:09:00.000-04:00How interesting that you brought this up now. Jus...How interesting that you brought this up now. Just last week I was thinking that we should be exposing our son to his Jewish faith. My husband is Jewish, and while I'm not, I did promise to raise our children Jewish. After Prince Alexi's adoption, we had to convert him to Judaism because I'm not Jewish. <BR/><BR/>But other than the traditional Jewish, generally non religious customs, we don't live a particularly Jewish life. So how will PA know that he's Jewish. How will he know what Jewish is?<BR/><BR/>I'm not much in to organized religion. Frankly, too much shit has happened for me to believe there is a God, at least the kind of god I would like there to be, out there.<BR/><BR/>If PA is going to learn he is Jewish, then it will have to be my husband who teaches it to me. After all, he's far more qualified than I, the shiksa he married. <BR/><BR/>So I should probably talk to him about it, but if I do, I'm afraid he's going to make me go to synagogue with them. And that would require actually talking to people I don't know. Oy...Kristinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15401725929395230941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153542791866292662006-07-22T00:33:00.000-04:002006-07-22T00:33:00.000-04:00Ugh, so much to think about, so much to consider, ...Ugh, so much to think about, so much to consider, so few words to work out a meaningful response. Thank you, again and again, for making me think. And the picture at the end? Totally choked me up. Such purity, such innocence. It fills my eyes and my heart. I wish you peace as you go down this path... I'm stumbling along it, too. Just not quite as eloquently!!!susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231786641690095728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153525276889090882006-07-21T19:41:00.000-04:002006-07-21T19:41:00.000-04:00I was raised nothing and was baptized this year be...I was raised nothing and was baptized this year because we wanted to raise our children in a religion. And having been raised believing in nothing, it is hard to swallow much of the mumbo jumbo, as I call it. I don't have time to really expand right now, but we went with the Episcopal Church instead of the Catholic because it allows for more questioning and doesn't believe as much in the punative side of God but still has the same basic service etc (or so my husband claims).chichimamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17549929656881693553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153520404458490282006-07-21T18:20:00.000-04:002006-07-21T18:20:00.000-04:00Another wonderful and necessary post. I guess I g...Another wonderful and necessary post. I guess I gave my comments in person but I just need to express how glad you wrote this because it made me think about the religion "issue". I had pushed that back on the list of things to address but I can't leave it low forever (as much as I wish I could). Thank you for restarting the dialogue.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the birthday greetings and I loved my birthday "cake".motherbumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16053978199395919666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153520382778031172006-07-21T18:19:00.000-04:002006-07-21T18:19:00.000-04:00I'm sorry that you ever went through a time that y...I'm sorry that you ever went through a time that you felt you had to reject God in some way. It is a dark and lonely place to be. If one takes the time to understand Him they would know that His very nature is that of Love. Bad things don't happen BECAUSE of Him. That's just the nature of this world. Sin happens and its consequences follow. I do know this that if you believe that Jesus is the son of God and that He sacrificed all for the love of all people you will be with Him in heaven. Maybe that isn't your reason to bring faith to your kids, but why not? How much greater can you get than that?Gingers Momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13847703944151722742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153516561577852292006-07-21T17:16:00.000-04:002006-07-21T17:16:00.000-04:00First let me say what a precious picture that is t...First let me say what a precious picture that is to put with this post. <BR/>When the path is dark, I remind myself that I really believe God has a plan for me. A path of His own. I believe that everything happens for a reason, His reason. This might be easy for me to believe because I've never had anything truly devastating happen to me. I've never had a loved one pass away unexpectedly (my biggest fear). Heck, three of my Grandparents just now passed away in the last several years. They all lived long, fulfilling lives.<BR/>However, I do look back at times when I cried, times when I wondered "why" and now I see "why." I understand "why." For example: The man I thought I was in love with and destined to be with, dumped me after two years. My heart was hurt, torn, broke, and didn't function properly. Then in one swoop, came my now husband. I would have put up with that idiot of a boyfriend for the rest of my life had he not broke up with me. Thankfully, he did. Thankfully, he hurt me b/c if he hadn't, I wouldn't be married to my husband now and I wouldn't have my two perfect children. And for that matter, I wouldn't have converted to Catholicism. The best thing that happened from me converting was me finally questioning faith. I never questioned it growing up. I didn't think I was supposed to. Becoming Catholic though, I "learned" more about God and about Christianity in one year than I was "taught" the previous 24 years. I grew up (and still live) in the Bible belt where if you aren't strict Southern Baptist, then you are going to hell. Thankfully, switching faiths taught me that no ONE way is the right way. <BR/>To end this comment and keep from rambling on and on and on, I'll say that I will raise my children in the Catholic Church but if they one day decide to leave it and go somewhere else, that's fine with me. As long as they believe in God and are good people, I'll be a happy mommy.Silly Hilyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11381085189763136258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153513518152604672006-07-21T16:25:00.000-04:002006-07-21T16:25:00.000-04:00HBM, I haven't had time to read through all of the...HBM, I haven't had time to read through all of the comments yet, so I hope I'm not missing more significant points that I should address, and I'll plan to go back later (when not at work, doh!) to make sure. But I just wanted to say a couple of things: 1.) I struggle with the same questions. 2.) Even though I struggle, my kids are almost 5 and 3 now, and that struggle has gone on longer than yours has (regarding Wonder Baby specifically anyway), and what I've come to - for now - is that I can teach my kids not to shut down the idea of God and "faith" without "indoctrinating" them into the organized religions with which I have major disagreements and which cause me spiritual heartburn. That method involves a lot more talking, a lot more honest "I don't know, but I think maybe X" answers to your curious child, but I think it's healthier than taking them to a church simply because I haven't figured out a better way. I did that for a while too (took them to church because I didn't know a better way) and I found myself trying to qualify all of the Sunday school lessons every week - it felt too forced and confusing. Now, while I still worry and struggle internally, I am able to honestly tell my kids that I don't know everything, that beliefs change, but that there are some "universal truths" (if you will) that *I* believe are critical. <BR/><BR/>Sorry for the rambling comment. I shouldn't do this at work - I'm not 100% focused. Anyway, I appreciated your thoughtful post and wanted you to know that there are people who have similar struggles, and also wanted to tell you my personal experience and journey down that path (so far - who knows where we'll be in another year or 10).Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02667140531327670081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153494145177164372006-07-21T11:02:00.000-04:002006-07-21T11:02:00.000-04:00I am Catholic. My spirituality is something that I...I am Catholic. My spirituality is something that I keep private. My daughter is baptized and will attend a Catholic school, be confirmed and do all that jazz. We will attend church every week (we do not attend now, but will once we live in one community).<BR/><BR/>It is not all due to my great sense of religion and God per say. It is the community and the morals that I believe will be beneficial to her well being and growth as a person.<BR/><BR/>Great post. Makes me think till my head hurts...Love that!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153486707774942852006-07-21T08:58:00.000-04:002006-07-21T08:58:00.000-04:00For what it's worth, I've posted my "response" if ...For what it's worth, I've posted my "response" if that's what it can be called. It just would have taken up too much space here!<BR/><BR/>Cheers.Namitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06476552972162497517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153482300119226202006-07-21T07:45:00.000-04:002006-07-21T07:45:00.000-04:00Crap. That last comment was from me, Sarah (Goon S...Crap. That last comment was from me, Sarah (Goon Squad Sarah). I don't know why blogger won't acknowledge me.<BR/><BR/>Maybe it's a Christian outfit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153482240527284552006-07-21T07:44:00.000-04:002006-07-21T07:44:00.000-04:00I have chosen not to believe. It seems to work for...I have chosen not to believe. It seems to work for me, but I was never in a position where I was a true believer in the first place, nor have I made any deals with any dieties, so it's a touch easier for me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153459386414089522006-07-21T01:23:00.000-04:002006-07-21T01:23:00.000-04:00Well once again you've written a post about which ...Well once again you've written a post about which I could write a hundred blog posts in response. MUST STOP DOING THAT TO ME HBM!<BR/><BR/>But in a nutshell, I thought about being a nun too and not because my faith is that strong, but because it seemed kind of independent and counter-culture and I thought maybe I could do something good in the world.<BR/><BR/>And then here I am. ;)<BR/><BR/>But on the issue of indoctrination, my husband was raised atheist and believes that is very superior and all that. But I totally disagree. I believe that to raise a child without religion (is certainly a parent's right and choice but still) is ALSO a form of indoctrination. Everything we teach our children about anything can be called "indoctrination."<BR/><BR/>Mostly I struggle because while I'm quite religious, I'm very private about it. That or I'm a hypocrite because if you knew me you'd never guess that I'm religious. So I don't take my kids to church very often even though I feel I should... because I'D rather hang out in my pajamas and drink coffee on Sunday morning.<BR/><BR/>Oh I could go on and on. Perhaps I'll blog about this one day too.<BR/><BR/>And the Mommy Wars are coming tomorrow (or the day after). I mean it this time!the mystichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11536278508991059301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153457730555443282006-07-21T00:55:00.000-04:002006-07-21T00:55:00.000-04:00We decided to raise Archer Jewish because it was v...We decided to raise Archer Jewish because it was very important to the huz. I was raised with EVERYTHING. We went to mass on Christmas, temple every Thanksgiving (as well as on Jewish holidays) and spent many a weekend meditating in the self-realization-fellowship. We attended services at the Christian Science church and my mom sang in the choir at the Unitarian. We studied Budha in my mom's neighborhood 'bible class' on Sundays and read from the Koran. It was amazing and from it I formed my own personal beliefs and ideas.<BR/><BR/>Even though we're raising Archer as a Jew I want him to experience and learn about all faiths so he too can believe in some sort of "higher power" his way, not mine, not some church's but HIS.GIRL'S GONE CHILDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07130764109593048451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153455673104561292006-07-21T00:21:00.000-04:002006-07-21T00:21:00.000-04:00I struggle with the same issue regarding my childr...I struggle with the same issue regarding my children. I want them to have choices without being indoctrinated while learning about their options. I had a real "lightbulb moment" not too long ago at my daughter's Methodist church preschool and though I know they have the best of intentions, the whole premise of organized religion felt very cultish at that moment. And I can't shake that feeling. So without a clue what I'm doing, I flounder and end up sharing with my daughter my personal philosophies about life and faith. That's not really giving her options but it's the best I can do right now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153443903399737602006-07-20T21:05:00.000-04:002006-07-20T21:05:00.000-04:00I honestly didn't have time to read through everyo...I honestly didn't have time to read through everyone's comments, so if I'm repeating something someone else mentioned, just ignore me.<BR/><BR/>I know you had read my posts about spirituality and I struggle with the same thoughts.<BR/><BR/>I have yet to write about this, but I recently sort of stumbled upon a nice church. I'm sure you've heard of Unitarian Universalism. I know that depending on one's geographical location each church varies in its practicies. But the one I found near me is lovely. To be honest, I have only gone once (twice this coming Sunday) and am not really doing it for myself at all.<BR/><BR/>The UU religious education system is unique in that it teaches children morality above all, using several religions and their books as guides. This exposes the children to a variety of faiths, enabling them to one day make their own decisions. This is what I have always been looking for...above all, a place where my daughter will not feel afraid to ask the questions I never did.Nicholehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05959914034833564529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153443544711272772006-07-20T20:59:00.000-04:002006-07-20T20:59:00.000-04:00Oh - and I only just now caught the Blake referenc...Oh - and I only just now caught the Blake reference. Very cool.Beahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15957626443087438904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153441746102173322006-07-20T20:29:00.000-04:002006-07-20T20:29:00.000-04:00As a lapsed Catholic myself I have no answers. I ...As a lapsed Catholic myself I have no answers. I wish I did, I sincerely wish I did. And there lies the crux (the cross?) of the problem. I struggle with this topic everyday of my life and I think I need some more time with it. You gave me some food for thought, though. I don't know if I agree with you on everything but some of your ideas struck a chord. <BR/><BR/>Not quite off topic, I would have loved to have known you as a goth-Catholic wanna be nun teenager. ;)Chicky Chicky Babyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18056206889322232109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153436532845288702006-07-20T19:02:00.000-04:002006-07-20T19:02:00.000-04:00If it's going to be science, then the unanswerable...If it's going to be science, then the unanswerable questions are easy: the answer is that nobody knows for sure. That's actually the aspect of rational thought which I find the most comforting; there's no need for any leaps of faith, or answers to every single question. But what I really wanted to say is that it figures that you were a catholic Goth as a teen-ager. I think most Goths (at least the old-school ones) always wanted to be catholic. I mean, you'd've already had all the gear, with your rosary beads, and your St Christopher’s.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153433477201705102006-07-20T18:11:00.000-04:002006-07-20T18:11:00.000-04:00No suggestions here, but I wish you well.No suggestions here, but I wish you well.Sharon L. Hollandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06387774344892567897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21558474.post-1153430262967964312006-07-20T17:17:00.000-04:002006-07-20T17:17:00.000-04:00I was raised in a Unitarian Universalist community...I was raised in a Unitarian Universalist community. UU is more of a community than a single faith, as all faiths are part of it. And unfaithful (in a sense) as well. Clear as mud, eh?<BR/><BR/>That being said, I am generally wary of talking about faith and spirituality, so for now I will just say thanks for the posting. It's helped me to focus on what I want to say in my own space.Namitohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06476552972162497517noreply@blogger.com